Identify Your Paistes

From Cymbal
Revision as of 05:29, 8 June 2022 by Type85 (talk | contribs)
Jump to navigation Jump to search

It is not uncommon for people to come across Paistes that are not completely identifiable. This includes vintage cymbals which the ink stamped logos and labels have been removed or faded.
More modern cymbals can be rendered ambiguous if cleaned improperly.

This page includes points used to identify cymbals that do not have proper labeling that has survived (more info is also available on the serial # page).

Please note that for this conversation, the term "embossed" refers to anything pressed into the metal of the cymbal, and the word "stamped" refers to any wording applied in ink.
In other arenas these terms may not be used in the same way.

Alloys

There are several alloys used in the production of Paiste cymbals.
The easiest way to determine the alloy of an unknown cymbal is visually. However, the color may be difficult to judge in digital photographs.
It is recommended that when trying to identify a cymbal that it be done in person. Comparing to a cymbal of a known alloy is helpful if one is not familiar with the hues of the different alloys.
The formulae noted below refers to the amount of tin is mixed in with the main ingredient copper so for example, the B8 formula would be 8% tin to 92% copper.

B20 "Bell bronze" Alloy

Bell bronze, also known as bell metal, is the traditional alloy used for fine cymbals:

  • B20: 20% tin / 80% copper tends to have a silver/yellow or white/yellow color hue, it is more pale than either the B15 and B8 alloys.
  • Bell bronze is a "two-phase" alloy: meaning some of the tin is not dissolved in the copper grains but exists between them.
  • This makes the metal harder and more brittle than a single-phase alloy, it must be "hot rolled" (Hot rolling is a metalworking process that occurs above the recrystallization temperature of the material).
  • It can be difficult to work with, requiring extensive reworking, tempering and annealing due to its natural brittle state, but it has been used longer than any other alloy (almost 400 years by Zildjian alone!).
  • B20 is still the most commonly used form of bronze.
  • The copper in the alloy will oxidize when exposed to excessive moisture.

Series that use this alloy: SUPER FORMULA 602, Formula 602, Sound Creation, Twenty, Twenty Custom Collection, and Twenty Masters Collection.

  • Super Formula 602

  • Formula 602

  • Sound creation

  • Twenty Masters

  • Masters Crisp ride

  • Twenty Custom

B15 "Signature" Alloy

Paiste "Sound Alloy": 15% tin / 85% copper, is the first bronze formula ever developed specifically for making cymbal sounds:

  • In 1989 Paiste released this professional cymbal series bronze with 15% tin content.
  • Though the manufacturing requires the metal to be hot rolled (like B20) at certain stages, it is not tempered like traditional B20 cymbals but is annealed: Annealing.
  • Using this alloy allows for greater consistency between blanks compared to traditional cymbal alloy, and is more inline with Paiste's B8 production methods.
  • B15, or Proprietary Signature Bronze (PSB) alloy, can be identified by lustrous yellow coloration.
  • Like all bronze, a blue/green oxide will be found when exposed to excessive moisture. This cupric oxide is what gives the Statue of Liberty its characteristic color.
  • In early promotional materials, Paiste referred to this alloy as "PSA" - Paiste Sound Alloy.

Series that use this alloy: Signature, Signature Dark Energy, Signature Traditionals, and Visions(certain models), Sound formula.

  • Signature

  • Signature Dark Energy

  • Signature Traditionals

  • Visions

  • Sound formula

B8 "Malleable bronze" (2002) Alloy

Malleable bronze is an alloy of tin and copper comprising 8% tin / 92% copper:

  • It is a "single-phase" alloy and can be cold rolled into sheets (Cold rolling occurs with the metal below its recrystallization temperature, usually at room temperature)
  • Unlike B20 bell bronze, it is readily available as commercial sheet metal in many grades and thicknesses.
  • Top of the line malleable bronze cymbals proved exceptionally suitable for the louder music, the best of them equal the best bell bronze cymbals in quality and sound characteristics.
  • B8 has a noticeable orange hue to it, this is readily seen in clean cymbals, but is also present in cymbals that have developed a patina.
  • One noticeable exception is the RUDE line: the color of a RUDE may have a green or brown tint but the lack of lathing and the raw color from the annealing process give them away.
  • Moisture will cause B8 to develop a tell tale blue/green oxide.

Series that use this alloy: 2002, Giant Beat, RUDE, Dimensions, Innovations, Alpha, 505, 404, Stambul 65, Stambul B8 (after 1970), Dixie B8 (after 1970), 3000, 2000, 1000 among many others.

  • 2002

  • Giant Beat

  • Rude

  • Dimensions

  • Innovations

  • 900 series

  • 3000

  • 2000

  • 1000

  • Alpha

  • 505

  • 404

  • 900 series marching/symphonic

  • Stambul 65

  • Stambul

  • Dixie

  • 802

  • 502

  • PST 8

  • Pst 7

NS12 Nickel Silver - CuNi12Zn24 (CuNi12 for short)

Composing roughly of 64% copper / 12% nickel / 24% zinc:

  • Paiste's go to alloy from 1947 to 1970/71 for some of it top line and all its lower line cymbals.
  • Nickel silver is malleable and available as commercial sheet metal, and gives a bright tone but without the shimmer and sensitivity of tin bronzes.
  • In the early to mid 20th century nickel alloy cymbals were far more widely produced and used, and so many older recordings were probably made using cymbals with a significant nickel content.
  • A very few specialised high-quality cymbals are also made from nickel silver, as are some top-quality gongs producing more modern and exotic sounds.
  • Cymbals made of nickel silver have a steely silver color, this color tends to be more sterile looking then B20 alloy, resembling steel in many cases.
  • Nickel silver is known for not corroding easily and may only have a light surface patina, rendering them more of a grey color.
  • If exposed to moisture, they will not develop the blue/green oxide indicative of cupric alloys.

Series that use this alloy: Stambul (pre '71), Dixie (pre '71), Ludwig, Stanople, and Super, among others.

  • Zilko standard

  • Arbiter Zilket

  • Standard Hi hats

  • 402 nickel silver hi-hats

  • NS12 Stambul 20" ride

  • Ludwig standard 22" ride

  • Ludwig Standard 13" hi hats

  • 14" Stanople marching

MS63 Brass

Brass is a copper/zinc alloy, most commonly in a 63% copper / 37% zinc ratio:

  • It is very easily worked, readily available as sheet metal, and easily the cheapest metal stock normally used for cymbals.
  • The tone of brass cymbals tends to be warm but dull compared to any sort of tin bronze.
  • This alloy is almost exclusively found in beginner lines of instruments.
  • If your store carries entry-level kits that come with complimentary cymbals, they’re likely to be brass.
  • Used in some entry level Paiste cymbals.

Series that use this alloy: Brass-Tones, 101 Brass, 200, 302

  • 1940's Brass Zilko

  • 200

  • 101

  • Brass tones

  • 302

Serial Numbers

Please see the special "serial number page" that examines these in detail.
Prototypes may or may not adhere to the serial number patterns in all respects.

Series Logos/stamps/emboss

The other important embossed information is the series stamp. Early Paistes used this method exclusively for identification of the cymbal. The typical embossed logos can be see on the various series pages.
In many cases this was later replaced with ink stamped logos. Embossed logos are usually found at the 12:00 position on the cymbal (3:00 for vintage giant beats).
Spotting details include:

Very early 2002 cymbals used a logo with a border that is not seen in later examples. It is thought that this indicates cymbals from 1971. Examples have not included serial numbers indicating that they were from 1971 or 1972.
Early Traditional models had an embossed or etched Paiste script logo. This was discontinued after the first or second year. Cracking about the embossed logo has been sighted as a reason for this change.

  • Signature traditional series emboss logo w/crack

  • 2002 early logo.jpg

    Early 2002 stamp with "border"

  • German 2002 stamp

  • Swiss 2002 stamp

  • 602 "solid stamp"

  • Super formula 602

  • German 505 stamp

  • 404 stamp

  • Sound creation stamp

  • Rude 1st. generation (early '80's) ink stamp

  • Vintage Giant beat stamp

  • Stambul

  • Dixie

  • Zilko

  • Zilko standard

  • Standard

  • Super

  • "3 star" Ludwig-Paiste

  • Ludwig "standard"

  • Ludwig-Stanople

1981 transition to Ink Stamps

Taking cues from the new 1980 Rude models with it's large printing of the logo, size and model name; Paiste applies the same labeling format to all it's current models the following year.
Paiste started to use ink stamps to identify their products mid 1981. These are used to identify the series, type and size of the cymbals.
At the same time Paiste also chaged the serial number format adding "Paiste" and the series name above the serial number: detailed info here.
As with all of Paiste's production through the years; there was a transition period, it was common for Paiste to "restamp" black label cymbals with the new printed logo, the old emboss/stamp can be clearly seen under the printing (see examples below).
There is some confusion as to when a cymbal is made because it has a printed logo, the serial number and formatting of the serial number is the most accurate way to determine that.

  • Sound creation with stamp and printed logo

  • 602 with stamp and printed logo

  • 1975 dark ride with 602 printed logo in black ink!

  • 505 with stamp and printed logo

  • Stambul that was relabeled as a 505, this means it sat in Paiste's warehouse for about 4 years!

Size Stamps

During the "black label" era, size stamps appeared under the bell. During the "printed label era" (1981) they were moved to the front of the cymbal and placed below the type identifier in the 03:00 position.
Like the type label, they are usually in a sans serif font. When using the sans serif font, the number is in a bold typeface.
There has been subtle variation in the font over the years, such as the inch symbol being in either a bold or non-bold font: detailed info here
Spotting details include:

  • RUDES uses a stencil font for the type label, but the standard sans serif font for the size.
  • In the 1990s the size has become part of the type label for the Traditional and Signature series
  • Like the type label, the size label of prototype have been found in the 03:00 position and 12:00 position.

Prototypes

Prototypes tend to be a bit non standard in their labeling. It is common practice for the 12:00 position to contain the word "Paiste" in large print. In smaller print, at 6:00 the word "Prototype" normally appears in a smaller size. Examples exist the do not include the word "Prototype".

Spotting details include: Prototypes do not contain any production series identifiers, except for a small sticker often found on the back of the cymbal. It is unclear whether this is an indication of what series the cymbals was designed for or if it is only used as a guide for pricing the cymbal by retailers. Prototypes often use "generic" model designations, i.e., "Crash", "Ride", "Hi-Hat", et cetera.

  • 35548166 10156416311555349 3525729943092723712 n.jpg
  • Sig 2002 crystal HH PT.jpg
  • Paiste 2002 15 Extra Heavy Hi-Hat White 1.jpg
  • 15 xtra hvy HH.jpg
  • 2002 dark.jpg
  • 35736036 10156416312035349 2272247697714970624 n.jpg
  • 13JUN09 009.JPG
  • Flat proto china.jpg
  • 22 rude power bell.JPG
  • 25 jun customs 094.jpg

Artist Model Stamps

There have been a limited number of artists model stamps ranging from simple sans serif text to graphics.
Spotting details include:


  • Joe Morello

  • Joe Morello

  • Seven Sound Set #4

  • Seven Sound Set #3

  • RUDE 24" Mega Power Ride

  • Black Alpha

  • Signature Reflector 22 Bell Ride

  • Blue bell ride

  • Reverend Al's "big ride"

Lathing

In the absence of embossed or stamped logos, cymbal identification can be performed by evaluating the lathing. Many series have very distinct lathing.
For example, RUDES are known for not being lathed at all (with the exception of the 24" Mega Power Ride, and Innovations have the "Sound Texture" lathing that looks as if the lathing tool was allowed to skip across the surface.

Spotting details include:

  • 2002 and 602 side by side, lathing and color of alloy differences can be clearly seen.

  • 2002's have two layers of lathing: fine lathing with uneven spaced coarse lathing over it

  • 602 crashes, rides etc. seem to have very consistent even spaced deep lathing

  • 602 chinas, splashes, bells and flat rides have very fine lathing

  • hi-hats vary depending on weight: heavies have coarse lathing

  • Medium and sound edge hi-hats have fine lathing

  • 505's are similar to 2002's with dual lathing except the coarse lathing is simpler and evenly spaced

  • 404's have very consistent tightly packed moderate lathing, not as deep as the lathing on 602's

Hammering

In addition to the lathing, the hammering of a cymbal can be critical to identifying a cymbal when no embossed or stamped logos are found. And just as with lathing, various series have characteristic hammering.
In some cases, such as the 2002 Wilds, the sub-series has a distinct heavy hammering.
Spotting details include: 

           Coming soon.

Factory refinishing

Details are scarce, but from a few 2007 online posts from a German drum forum, it seems Paiste offered a "refinishing service" where they would clean, recoat and then print new logos using modern methods (no rubber ink stamp!).
Results are outstanding considering the reasonable cost associated for the service (see correspondence below), both the the German factory and Swiss factory offered this service.
According to correspondence; if you want new logos printed, only the Swiss factory can do it. Also, we don't know if Paiste is still offering this service.
If you find a 70's black label cymbal based on the serial number but it looks brand new, this could be the reason why.

03/2007:
"Thank you for your email and your interest in Paiste products.
Please note that we are offering this service free of charge until further notice. Please send the cymbals directly to us in Switzerland.
Thank you for your understanding and your continued support!
Best regards, Paiste AG
Customer Service: Switzerland"

10/2007:
"Thank you very much for your email. The Paiste company calculates the refinishing as follows:
Cleaning and preservation 20, - Euro net / pc.
Cleaning, stamping and preservation 30, - Euro net / pc.
Shipping costs are calculated at 3.80 euros net.
In your case, I need to know what color the 2002 logo is and whether it needs to be renewed.
If this is the case, we will send the cymbals to Switzerland because we do not have the appropriate logos here in Germany, then you would have to accept a longer waiting time.

Please send the cymbals to the following address:Paiste GmbH & Co.KG, Gorch-Fock-Str. 13
D-24790 Schacht-Audorf"

  • 15" sound edge top before

  • 15" sound edge top after

  • Closeup

  • 15" sound edge bottom before

  • 15" sound edge bottom after

  • German 2002 from about 1976 based on serial number

  • Refurbed 2002 3.jpg

    Closeup

  • bottom logo shows the post 2005 "made in Switzerland"

European, English & Japanese distributors

Collectors may run across odd looking logos from vintage Paistes during their online searches, below is some background detail and history on what one might find:

Arbiter: England

"Arbiter Ltd." and "Dallas–Arbiter" were the UK importers and distributors for Paiste. Ivor Arbiter wikipedia
Ivor Arbiter was a British-American drum designer, manufacturer, instrument salesman, and entrepreneur. In his early career, he was the owner and operator of a specialty drum shop in the West End of London.
Later, Arbiter founded or co-founded several instrument companies, including Arbiter–Western, Dallas–Arbiter and CBS–Arbiter. "Arbiter Ltd." was sold to Dallas in 1969 the company was renamed "Dallas–Arbiter".
There were 4 different Arbiter stamped Paiste lines starting in 1962 before they stopped and carried the standard Paiste branded lines in the late 60s: Arbiter Custom Formula 602 (602) Arbiter Custom (most likely Stambuls) Arbiter Zilko (most likely Dixies), Arbiter Zilket (most likely SUPER or an Arbiter only student line).
These were sold until as late as 1968. By 1969, Arbiter started carrying standard Paiste branded product lines except for the Zilkets which were sold until the early 1970s.

  • Arbiter Custom Formula 602 logo. This cymbal is probably from the mid 1960s. Charlie Watts used a 16" Arbiter Custom Formula 602 for many years before it cracked.

  • Arbiter Custom pricing and available sizes indicate the "Custom" might been a Stambul with a different emboss.

  • Arbiter Zilko

  • Arbiter Zilket

  • Arbiter "Custom" Formula 602

  • '71/'72 Dallas-Arbiter catalog

  • 1968 Arbiter Ltd. catalog

  • 1968 Arbiter Ltd. price list for 602's

  • 1964 Arbiter advert

  • Arbiter "Trixton": rebranded Dixie?

Hayman standard cymbals:

Introduction 1968* / Discontinued 1975* (*) Pending further research Hayman was a UK-based drum brand that was produced from 1968 - 1975.
Hayman drums and cymbals were the brainchild of Ivor Arbiter: "The Hayman Standard is a cymbal with the Hayman name made by the Paiste Cymbal Company in Switzerland. These fine cymbals will more than meet the requirements of the drummer who is not yet ready to purchase a top of the line cymbal". (from early-mid 70s Dallas-Arbiter catalog). These B8 Paiste-made cymbals are a bit on the rare side.
Our guess is that Paiste made these cymbals for just a few years, most likely from 1973 to 1975 as Dallas-Arbiter carried standard Paiste product lines up until at least 1971/72. The Dallas-Arbiter catalog is unclear on how these cymbals were typed, listing them as hi hats and medium rides, which doesn't make much sense given the available sizes. One cymbal was found and it looks, from what's left of the ink, like it was designated as a Medium Thin which suggests these cymbals could have been relabeled Dixies with a Hayman emboss. It's also possible these are similar or the same as a late period Ludwig Standard. Wikipedia: Hayman drums
Available sizes:
Hi Hats: 14", 15"
Cymbals were available in: 16", 18", 20", 22"

It's quite possible they were available in these two weights:
Medium Thin: 16", 18", 20", 22"
Crash Ride: 16", 18", 20", 22"

  • Hayman stamp

  • Hayman arbiter catalog

  • 20"

  • 22"

  • 14" hi-hat

  • Pair 14" hi-hat

Sonor: Germany

Sonor sold Paiste Stambuls in their catalogs with a special Sonor logo stamped below the regular Stambul stamp. Paistes are listed in the Sonor catalogs from 1952 to about 1958. We cannot find any evidence that Sonor had a relationship with Paiste prewar, but investigations are ongoing!

  • 1952 catalog

  • 1952 catalog

  • 1953 catalog

  • 1957/8 catalog

  • 1957/8 catalog

  • 1957/8 catalog

  • early 50's stamp with old Sonor "delta" logo

  • early 50's stamp with old Sonor "delta" logo

  • Sonor "script" logo

  • Stambul HH NS12 15 inch with Sonor Logo t1169g b1224g.jpg

SISME: Italy

SISME were the Italian importers and distributors for Paiste.
SISME had Paiste add "high performance" to the stamp on all the imported models, they also added "SISME distribution" in red ink on the bottom of the cymbals.

  • Sound creation logo with SISME "high performance"

  • Preserial 602 thin with "high performance" stamp

  • "high performance" stamp

  • "high performance" stamp

  • 602 sound edge with "SISME distribution" stamped in red

Pearl: Japan

There was a time when Pearl distributed Paiste in Japan. From research that time period seems to run from 1969 to 1979.
Below is a page from a 1979 Pearl JDM catalog showing the selection of Sound Creation, Formula 602, 2002, and 404's.
Of note here is the selection of 404s: it contains actual 404s and restamped Dixies as indicated by some of the sizes (12") and the Medium Thin and Crash Ride options.
The Dixie cymbals have a different emboss that includes the Pearl logo (see below).

  • Dixie with Pearl logo included in stamp

  • Paiste selection in 1974 Pearl JDM catalog. Shows Pearl was selling Giant Beats as well as 602s and Dixies

  • 1975 JDM catalog

  • 1975 JDM catalog - 2002s in - Giant Beats out.

  • 1976 JDM catalog

  • 1979 JDM catalog


U.S. distributors before 1965

DynaStar Formula 602s were sold in the USA by Halifax Distribution from 1962 to early 1965 prior to Ludwig taking over exclusive North American distribution later in '65. Prior to Ludwig's exclusive deal with Paiste in ~1965 it looks like Bonne Music Center in Syracuse, NY was one of "the" places to get a Formula 602 in the early 1960s (printed material exists to confirm a 1962 start date of Dynastar F602).
The cymbals even got an alternate emboss logo with the Dynastar name. Why the Dynastar name? That remains unclear. Around this time, the store also started importing a lot of other instruments from overseas, so maybe they tied them all together under the Dynastar brand name.
As an aside: Dynastar/Halifax also briefly sold the Paiste Dixie and budget SUPER for a short time in 1964/5 before those lines were removed from the market due to the Ludwig deal. Why didn't Halifax carry the Stambul? Because it was already being sold in the USA as the Ludwig Paiste (3-star logo).

  • Dynastar 602 logo.jpg
  • Dynastar 602 logo2.jpg
  • Dynastar 602.jpg
  • Dynastar flyer.jpg
  • Dynastar jake hanna.jpg
  • Bonne music.jpg

  • 1963 Dynastar Formula 602 ad. (Down Beat magazine) Bonne Music/Halifax Distributing of Syracuse, NY

Oddball distributors

  • 602 "hifi bronce", bronce is Spanish for bronze, possibly a Spanish distributor?

Sources: Paiste.com, Cymbal alloys - wikipedia, Todd Little, Steve Black, Dan Garza, Nils Lillig, Splash Baker.
Return to the Paiste Series Portal
 Return to the Paiste Main Page

Retrieved from "http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/index.php?title=Identify_Your_Paistes&oldid=19100"