Difference between revisions of "Paiste Ludwig"
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Because we have only found limited proof of these photos (mostly from Ludwig catalogs), we have had to provide our own theories from our data & information collection. In doing so, we have found several indicator features to help identify general date ranges:<br> | Because we have only found limited proof of these photos (mostly from Ludwig catalogs), we have had to provide our own theories from our data & information collection. In doing so, we have found several indicator features to help identify general date ranges:<br> | ||
| − | Indicator #1--Font Form and Font Style: There are two general forms being used (a script line-form or a hollow block-form). In addition, most of the lettering is shown (detached or separate letters), but one has an (cursive style or attached letters). See the Logo types to the right to gain further information.<br> | + | '''Indicator #1'''--Font Form and Font Style: There are two general forms being used (a script line-form or a hollow block-form). In addition, most of the lettering is shown (detached or separate letters), but one has an (cursive style or attached letters). See the Logo types to the right to gain further information.<br> |
| − | Indicator #2--Star Tip Count & Locations: Although there is only one example of tip count variance found so far, we have noticed the locations and angles of the stars have slightly changed over these years. It's unknown as to if this really matters towards dating, but it may give a clue. Most Ludwig 3 Stars have a 5-tips (points or ends), but there is one variant that has 4-tips shown.<br> | + | '''Indicator #2'''--Star Tip Count & Locations: Although there is only one example of tip count variance found so far, we have noticed the locations and angles of the stars have slightly changed over these years. It's unknown as to if this really matters towards dating, but it may give a clue. Most Ludwig 3 Stars have a 5-tips (points or ends), but there is one variant that has 4-tips shown.<br> |
| − | Indicator #3--Font Style: There are two styles being used (with flared letter tips/ends) and (non-flared letter tips). You can see the "flared" tip lettering in the "u", "d", "w" and "i" of the Ludwig name. | + | '''Indicator #3'''--Font Style: There are two styles being used (with flared letter tips/ends) and (non-flared letter tips). You can see the "flared" tip lettering in the "u", "d", "w" and "i" of the Ludwig name. |
| − | The following is | + | The following is a guesstimate approach to a general timeline of the 3 Star use:<br> |
| − | LOGO (A): We believe this is the first logo used. It shows only the "Ludwig" name in a narrow script line-form with detached letters that have flared letter tips. There are No stars around this Ludwig name.<br> | + | '''LOGO (A):''' We believe this is the first logo used. It shows only the "Ludwig" name in a narrow script line-form with detached letters that have flared letter tips. There are No stars around this Ludwig name.<br> |
| − | LOGO (B): This is likely the second version used, as it is still in narrow script line-form, but changes to a 'cursive' lettering style and it includes three stars around the top and ends of the "Ludwig" name. Just under this, included the signature "Paiste" name. Most of these cymbals show two locations: "Germany" over "Chicago". At the time, Ludwig's (based in Chicago) distribution was for the American market.<br> | + | '''LOGO (B):''' This is likely the second version used, as it is still in narrow script line-form, but changes to a 'cursive' lettering style and it includes three stars around the top and ends of the "Ludwig" name. Just under this, included the signature "Paiste" name. Most of these cymbals show two locations: "Germany" over "Chicago". At the time, Ludwig's (based in Chicago) distribution was for the American market.<br> |
*Note: This logo used 4 pointed stars, which is the only one found in these variants. It's possible, like the original Super F602's, they were changing logos until they locked into a final product release.<br> | *Note: This logo used 4 pointed stars, which is the only one found in these variants. It's possible, like the original Super F602's, they were changing logos until they locked into a final product release.<br> | ||
| − | LOGO (C): We believe this might have been used at the Swiss factory and 1957 or after. It uses a script line-form that is wider than the original script used in "Ludwig". The lettering is detached and has no flared tips. The usual three stars are in place around the "Ludwig" name, which is over the "Paiste" signature. Under this is typically the production location name.<br> | + | '''LOGO (C):''' We believe this might have been used at the Swiss factory and 1957 or after. It uses a script line-form that is wider than the original script used in "Ludwig". The lettering is detached and has no flared tips. The usual three stars are in place around the "Ludwig" name, which is over the "Paiste" signature. Under this is typically the production location name.<br> |
| − | LOGO (D): This is likely the last version of logo stamps used. I believe Paiste transitioned the font types from a script line-form over to a 'hollow' letter-form. They also used detached lettering with 'flared' tips, three stars around the "Ludwig" name, signature "Paiste" under "Ludwig", and the location name varied. | + | '''LOGO (D):''' This is likely the last version of logo stamps used. I believe Paiste transitioned the font types from a script line-form over to a 'hollow' letter-form. They also used detached lettering with 'flared' tips, three stars around the "Ludwig" name, signature "Paiste" under "Ludwig", and the location name varied. |
*Note: Being that this occurred in 1957 or after, cymbals had one of the following designations for location located under the "Paiste" signature:<br> | *Note: Being that this occurred in 1957 or after, cymbals had one of the following designations for location located under the "Paiste" signature:<br> | ||
1."Swiss Made"--1957 to 1964<br> | 1."Swiss Made"--1957 to 1964<br> | ||
Revision as of 11:27, 13 October 2021
Paiste Ludwig
Introduction: 1956
Discontinued: 1964(?)
Background: LUDWIG 3 STAR series. Introduction 1950* / Discontinued 1964*
Pending further review.*
The official Paiste '09 timeline does not reference the Ludwig 3 Star at all, this name was given the masses over the past several years.
Paiste only recognized the Ludwig Standard by name. All variants, we believe are NS12 (Nickel-Silver Alloy).
There is proof of several different embossed logo variations, and it's still unclear as to the order of dating on these over this period. One should also compare the old Ludwig logos that are shown through their history, as this will help to show similar dating in these earlier days.
We do know that any of the Ludwig 3 Stars with the location name of "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" were made from 1957 and after.
Also, there is proof that William F. Ludwig sent a letter to M. Paiste on July 23, 1946 agreeing to a partnership deal between the two companies. However, we do not yet know what that deal was, what kind of cymbals were to be sold, and when these were to be provided.
We believe the first of these were to be with only the "Ludwig" name embossed on the cymbals, as seen in Logo A to the right.
Because we have only found limited proof of these photos (mostly from Ludwig catalogs), we have had to provide our own theories from our data & information collection. In doing so, we have found several indicator features to help identify general date ranges:
Indicator #1--Font Form and Font Style: There are two general forms being used (a script line-form or a hollow block-form). In addition, most of the lettering is shown (detached or separate letters), but one has an (cursive style or attached letters). See the Logo types to the right to gain further information.
Indicator #2--Star Tip Count & Locations: Although there is only one example of tip count variance found so far, we have noticed the locations and angles of the stars have slightly changed over these years. It's unknown as to if this really matters towards dating, but it may give a clue. Most Ludwig 3 Stars have a 5-tips (points or ends), but there is one variant that has 4-tips shown.
Indicator #3--Font Style: There are two styles being used (with flared letter tips/ends) and (non-flared letter tips). You can see the "flared" tip lettering in the "u", "d", "w" and "i" of the Ludwig name.
The following is a guesstimate approach to a general timeline of the 3 Star use:
LOGO (A): We believe this is the first logo used. It shows only the "Ludwig" name in a narrow script line-form with detached letters that have flared letter tips. There are No stars around this Ludwig name.
LOGO (B): This is likely the second version used, as it is still in narrow script line-form, but changes to a 'cursive' lettering style and it includes three stars around the top and ends of the "Ludwig" name. Just under this, included the signature "Paiste" name. Most of these cymbals show two locations: "Germany" over "Chicago". At the time, Ludwig's (based in Chicago) distribution was for the American market.
- Note: This logo used 4 pointed stars, which is the only one found in these variants. It's possible, like the original Super F602's, they were changing logos until they locked into a final product release.
LOGO (C): We believe this might have been used at the Swiss factory and 1957 or after. It uses a script line-form that is wider than the original script used in "Ludwig". The lettering is detached and has no flared tips. The usual three stars are in place around the "Ludwig" name, which is over the "Paiste" signature. Under this is typically the production location name.
LOGO (D): This is likely the last version of logo stamps used. I believe Paiste transitioned the font types from a script line-form over to a 'hollow' letter-form. They also used detached lettering with 'flared' tips, three stars around the "Ludwig" name, signature "Paiste" under "Ludwig", and the location name varied.
- Note: Being that this occurred in 1957 or after, cymbals had one of the following designations for location located under the "Paiste" signature:
1."Swiss Made"--1957 to 1964
2. "Germany" (with or without "Chicago" under it)
3. No location listed at all
From 1957 and after, these sizes were believed to be offered: Thin, Medium, Heavy 10" through 22" Designated as Band, Ride or Hi Hat.
It should be noted that Ludwig ordered a mass of cymbals shipped to their Chicago warehouse and from there, they mix and matched destined pairs of cymbals.
Again, until we find the missing documents to help better identify some of these characteristics, we can only surmise.
Innovation:
Alloy: Nickel Silver
Quality:Entry level
Production:
Applications:Student, High school Band, marching and orchestra
Users:
Sound:
Thin
Medium
Heavy
Paiste's 1st. appearance in a Ludwig catalog (1957)!
Ludwig Standard
Introduction: 1965
Discontinued: 1975
Background: Made in Europe by Paiste, the Ludwig Standard cymbal line offers the high-quality, professional features of excellent tone, resonance and response.
These cymbals are carefully crafted by cymbal manufacturing experts to provide the best quality cymbals possible in their medium price range. They are available in a variety of sizes and weights to meet the requirement of any need. (1971 Ludwig catalog)
A joint venture by Ludwig and Paiste, the lower midline Ludwig Standards first appear in the 1957 Ludwig catalog.
The cymbals were originally made of the NS12 alloy in both the German and Swiss factories before getting an upgrade to B8 sometime around 1971. Well-preserved Ludwig Standards will have a red ink type stamp at the 3 o'clock position and later period cymbals also have a black ink Paiste logo above the bell.
We have been told by those at or close to Paiste that they stopped making cymbals for Ludwig sometime around 1970, although Ludwig continued to carry Paiste products in their catalogs until the mid-70s. The Ludwig Standards last appearance comes in the 1975 Ludwig catalog in limited size options as these cymbals are most assuredly leftover stock.
- After looking at online posts on the Ludwig 3-Stars and reviewing the Ludwig catalogs of the time period again, it is quite possible or maybe even probable that the "Ludwig 3-Stars" are actually the first generation of Ludwig "Standards" made from ~1956-1964.
Ludwig didn't actually start using the name "Ludwig Standard" in its materials until 1965 and this could be when they started embossing the cymbals with this name.
It seems at this point they started to retroactively apply the name to cymbals that were previously called Ludwig Custom cymbals or Ludwig Imported cymbals.
If I am correct about this, cymbals with the Ludwig Standard emboss will have been made between 1965 (or late 1964) until the end of production of this line.
1975: Last appearance of Paistes in a Ludwig catalog and it's only the Standards in limited size options (probably leftovers after the companies parted ways), F602, Giant Beat and Stanople are gone. A. Zildjian returns.
Innovation:
Alloy: Nickel Silver NS12 - CuSn8 (most likely after 1971)
Quality: Entry level
Production:
Applications: Student, High school Band, marching and orchestra
Users:
Sound:
Thin
Medium
Heavy
1970's 16" thin, possibly made from B8
Ludwig NS12 standard 14" Hi Hats
Ludwig NS12 standard 22" ride
1967 Ludwig catalog
1971 Ludwig catalog
1973 Ludwig catalog
1975 Ludwig catalog - Last appearance of Paistes in a Ludwig catalog
Information from: Ludwig '67/'71 catalog, Todd Little, Dan Garza
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